Xbox Elite Wireless Controller

FUF LP: First off, it is definitely a moded controller even by your own reasoning "it's a new product that offers features (comparable) to many modded controllers". Anytime you take a standard controller and change it (or mod it) it is now different, in
these cases now moded for advantage. Moding can be either physical, electronic or in this case with the Elite; both.

Second, Mad Catz does not offer a controller for xbox consoles like the Elite at all, check out their website, they never have. Only Scuf to my knowledge does and they are not officially licensed by Microsoft, so technically you can be banned on xbox live
for using one. The scuf is considered a moded controller, the Elite is an identical product with physical paddles and button remapping.

Third, the major issue but not the only issue is Microsoft's responsibility to all xbox live players. As I stated before, they are stealing from those who either choose not to play with this controller, don't want to spend the money or simply can't afford
one. It is because xbox live is Microsoft's service, if it wasn't, there wouldn't be an issue other than moral which all cheating falls under. But try to find me a major corporation that practices moral responsibility in all scenarios, not gonna happen.
As I said earlier as well, the only other out for them with continued production of the Elite is to make it the standard controller for all.

Fourth, the reason I am not going to do what you asked is because it would take day's to highlight then explain all areas in which Microsoft is violating their own xbox live terms of service and code of conduct with this controller. If I were to spend that
amount of time to do so, I wouldn't post it here for Microsoft to see. I would push the issue with a few high powered attorneys I personally know. But that's not my goal nor do I want to spend the time doing so. I just want to keep the discussion in the
forefront so as many people as possible will be aware of what Microsoft is doing. Which is basically giving into and now promoting cheating. They have never truly addressed this issue that is so prevalent on xbox live, they have only offered guises to pretend
they are doing something.

Fifth, if I were in charge of eliminating cheating on the xbox live service, here's the approach I would take.

a. Require for US players, social security numbers at sign up and renewal. For other countries, whatever it is they use to identify individuals.

b. Three strike rule; strike one - three month ban, strike two - six month ban, strike three- lifetime ban.

With this system in place, banned players would not be able to just create new gamer tags because identification numbers would match up to their banned profile and not allow them too. Initially the xbox live service might take a hit, you never know until
you try. But I think over time when players realize they are serious about this, cheating will come to a halt and the service will grow because of it.

Sixth, back to the other issue. If you want to reread the Microsoft Service Agreement and Xbox Live Code of Conduct as to put it, using different eyes and try to find where they are in violation, go for it. If not, I understand, it's not easy and takes
time from doing more enjoyable things. Try this at least though; in my last post I mentioned "You already located one in your second paragraph explanation above; can you identify that one?" Here it is, "exploiting game vulnerabilities". Try and come up with
some ways that the Elite controller violates this. You seem to be rather intelligent so I know if you put your mind to it you can do so.

 

Search for the Mad Catz FPS Pro which was sold several years ago and compare it to the features on the Xbox Elite Controller.

You can certainly make the argument that the Elite does not promote a level playing field but I simply can't agree that this device is in any way illegal. Microsoft sets the ground rules for their platform and they have the right to define what is considered
cheating and enforce the various rules as they see fit. Game vulnerabilities are things like glitches or weaknesses in a game's code that hackers can exploit, not the advantages officially licensed external hardware and accessories provide. Controllers like
Scufs could certainly be considered in violation of the Xbox Live Code of Conduct since they are modified official hardware, however it is nearly impossible to enforce a ban on them because the modifications can't be detected.

It is a bad idea to require social security numbers for something as trivial as gaming. There is a lot that can go wrong, especially with number of children using Xbox and making accounts. You would have kids entering in all sorts of fake numbers putting
people at risk, not to mention the dangerous consequences should any data be stolen. Microsoft already has the ability to track IP addresses, they know where each account is being signed in from and how many accounts are being used per household. They would
never take the risk of imposing a SSN based system when none of their competitors do the same, it doesn't make sense financially.

If there are loopholes in the Microsoft Service Agreement that the Xbox Elite Wireless Controller violates (which I certainly didn't see) then wouldn't they simply need to update the terms to prevent any issues?

 

FUF LP: I find your latest response very interesting. In my last post I asked you to take a look at this from a different perspective, to come up with why it does violate that specific area I mentioned. You completely ignored that and remain intensely
defensive. I wonder if you might be a Microsoft employee? Otherwise; why so defensive? Until you look at things from all points of view, you can't come to a correct conclusion, unless by chance.

Mad Catz FPS Pro controller: very interesting, wonder why it did not pop up when I was doing searches. Yes and no to this controller. Yes it violates the Microsoft Service Agreement and xbox live code of conduct, because Microsoft licensed it. The hypocrisy
for xbox live banning other for using moded controllers stands out after endorsing this. No, because it's not really similar to the Elite, it has two button mapping but that is the only similarity. It can be easily argued this controller provides no advantage
at all because of the very poor locations of the map capable buttons. Very awkward positioning that would actually slow response time. The Elite has 4 map capable with paddles, significantly different allowing the player to not have to remove his/her thumbs
from the thumbsticks. That is a tremendous advantage and will significantly boost response time. It also has an adjustable hair trigger with lock, the Mad Catz does not. So again, yes & no.

The Elite controller itself is not illegal, that in no way has ever been a point of mine. In the code of conduct it states " don't Exploit game vulnerabilities or glitches" As you can see, they are separate not the same. Because they do not define exploiting
game vulnerabilities, it therefor includes all means and ways of doing so, no limits, not even if a licensed device is capable of doing so and is used to do so. This includes inside means, like code and any and all outside means. No limits or exceptions.
I am very glad you at least now acknowledge that the Elite is a moded controller, since it is identical to the Scuf. There in lays Microsoft's hypocrisy.

I find your third paragraph top be completely erroneous, I don't mean that in an insulting way. For many, gaming is not trivial, it's their down time, preferred way of relaxing, only means of truly competing and many other non-trivial reasons for playing.
And that enjoyment is something they pay for. When Microsoft is robbing so many of that enjoyment they pay for, they are doing something significantly wrong. Social Security and other identity numbers would be a great addition and means of ending cheating,
which is the number one complaint of xbox live members. "There is a lot that can go wrong, especially with number of children using Xbox and making accounts." this is just an excuse, I would bet Microsoft is way more secure than the Social Security Administration.
If you watch the news, you would now our government offices are decades behind in computer security. Kids trying to create accounts with fake numbers would put no one at risk, that's just crazy talk They wouldn't be able to create fake accounts because
names, numbers, birth dates and so on wouldn't match up so no account created. If someone wants the data, Microsoft having it isn't going to jeopardize that any further. Like I said before, I'd bet my life that Microsoft is far more secure than the Social
Security Administration, they would just hack them. Tracking IP addresses is no answer, that has been proven over the years. People move, change service providers and many other things. Even banning a specific console is no answer, they just go and get
a new one. Besides, these are not isolating the individual, which is what really needs to be done. "They would never take the risk of imposing a SSN based system when none of their competitors do the same, it doesn't make sense financially." Another excuse,
since when do corporations settle for the same and not try to out shine their competition. That's just ridiculous. And financially, it makes perfect sense. They already have the means to match social security numbers through other programs they have, it
would be highly cost effective.

Fourth paragraph; yes, they could. However by doing so, this would voice loud and clear that they don't care about their members in the slightest. I think they would take a very heavy hit for that by stating they have absolutely no real concern for the
prolific cheating that goes on in the xbox live service.

 

I like this controller and the innovation it brings to the table, that's why I'm defending it. I reread the Microsoft Service Agreement again after the first few posts, which is why I kept saying I didn't see where Microsoft was doing anything wrong. I can't
list examples of something that I don't believe exists. We frankly interpret various portions of the service agreement differently, like what qualifies as a game vulnerability. For the most part I would argue the response to the controller from the Xbox community
has been overwhelmingly positive, with few complaints aside from the price point.

I do not agree that the Elite qualifies as a modded controller as it relates to the service agreement. An iPhone 6S may have been based on the original iPhone 6, but it is ultimately a new product. I see the Xbox One Wireless Elite Controller in the same
way.

I can't ever remember an online entertainment service asking for my SSN to sign up, it would certainly raise red flags if a company asked for mine. Not only is their the risk that personal information could be stolen but there are potentially serious privacy
concerns. Microsoft may have strong security but it isn't perfect, remember back in 2014 where a five year old kid found a flaw that allowed him to sign in to his father's Xbox account? Requiring too much information from consumers has the potential to drive
people away because of privacy concerns, which is why I think it would be bad for business.

If Microsoft decided to update their service agreement to avoid a legal problem (which I don't believe exists) few people would notice and far less would care. Most people don't consider the use of officially licensed products and accessories cheating, even
if they believe it to be unfair.

This is a dead end discussion, Microsoft isn't going to pull this controller or the Elite bundle from store shelves in the midst of the holiday season, they have too much invested in it.

 

FUFLP: I like the controller as well, but unfortunately that isn't the issue. And again if they made it the standard controller there would be no issue. Here in lies the problem "I can't list examples of something that I don't believe exists." Unless
you can look at things with open and unbiased eyes, which here you admit you can't, you will not be able to see truth, facts and fairness. It's not a matter of interpretation, I deal only in fact and have an overdeveloped sense of fairness.

"I do not agree that the Elite qualifies as a modded controller as it relates to the service agreement." Yet in your previous post you admit the scuf is a moded controller, they are identical excluding some cosmetics, very hypocritical here. It does not
matter who makes it nor if it's licensed, it is still moded from what is the standard, it still violates their agreement and code, and again if they made it the standard there would be no issue. Your iPhone comparison is not even close to being similar, it
carries no significance, very different.

Again your social security arguments are completely erroneous. I don't want to even get started on your privacy issue argument, with all the people freely giving out their own information on sites like facebook, twitter and such, they just have no grounds
for complaint. The only thing I slightly agree with is "Requiring too much information from consumers has the potential to drive people away". However I strongly believe that once people saw how much this improves the xbox live service, they would flock
to it like never before. Business would thrive because of it.

Most people don't consider the use of officially licensed products and accessories cheating, even if they believe it to be unfair." You're absolutely correct here, and its very unfortunate. The reason is because they simply don't understand what cheating
is, our society is to blame for that. Slowly generation after generation our moral values rot away, understanding of basic principles decay and we become numb to what is right and what is wrong. Just look at pro sports and all the cheating that goes on there,
kids are taught that you can most likely get away with it and be rewarded for it. Not even including all the past cheating that the patriots have been guilty of, most people can't even fathom or explain what it is that Brady, Bilichick and the patriots did
last season before and during the playoff game against the colts. Excluding emotional fanboys which every team has, they can't see the forest through the sleaze. If you interviewed people and asked them what it was they did, some would say cheated, others
gamesmanship (shame on Bob Costas) and others nothing. You might get an insignificant amount if any at all who truly understand what they did, it goes way beyond cheating. And its because of how numb our society has become, they don't even care that they
are being taken advantage of and used. Its truly pathetic.

So, does Microsoft want to jump on the band wagon or might they want to do better.

 

To say I did not look at the agreement critically from your point of view is simply untrue. Not everyone is going to reach the same conclusions from identical information because we all have different backgrounds. People have subconscious biases no matter
how they view information, in your case it may be your belief that Microsoft has the responsibility to keep a level playing field, or how you dislike the price of the controller. The truth isn't always clear-cut, with legal issues there is often room for
interpretation, that's why the justices of the Supreme Court often reach different conclusions on the same case.

The rampant racism, homophobia, and sexism displayed by older generations is hardly an example of positive morality in my book. The sensationalist media tends to bombard us with stories that make things seem as though everything is on the decline, yet we
live in one of the most peaceful times in recent human history.

Back on topic...

Microsoft may lose some customers because they don't like what the company is doing with the Elite, but they will also attract new ones in the process. If the controller wasn't well received in focus groups it never would have made it into production in
the first place.

 

FUF LP: paragraph one; a lot of this does not belong in this forum. However your response shows quite a bit of immaturity and lack of ability to reason. What you list does not apply to coming to the correct or proper conclusion, being able to differentiate
between right and wrong. They are only excuses people use to avoid doing so, and deflect responsibility. "The truth isn't always clear-cut" Mostly it is, it's just whether or not you want to see or acknowledge it. "with legal issues there is often room
for interpretation, that's why the justices of the Supreme Court often reach different conclusions on the same case" This is true because we have a system of legalities and this is their focus, we don't have a justice system. "your belief that Microsoft has
the responsibility to keep a level playing field" This is not a belief, this is a fact. You offer a service like xbox live, it is an inherent responsibility to your membership. Whether you want to accept that responsibility is another issue.

Paragraph two; Again, highly immature. One of your three examples only supports what I stated earlier. The media has nothing to do with it. You see the decay in everyday life, peoples attitudes, actions and what is now mostly acceptable are the key indicators.
As you get older it will become more and more apparent to you, you just obviously have not experienced or lived enough yet to see it. "we live in one of the most peaceful times in recent human history". I certainly hope you don't really believe this, this
is pure fantasy. We live in one of the most violent, careless and self-centered times in human history. We have more wars, terrorism, drug wars and violent uprisings then ever before. In our own country we have school shootings and other mass shootings
that seem to be taking place almost every other week now. And there are far more examples than these; you might want to step into the real world and take a look as to what's really going on for a minute.

Paragraph three; They'll attract far more by focusing on delivering a service that is fair to all.

 

Patronizing me does not make my arguments any less valid, or yours any more true. It is unreasonable to expect everyone to reach the same opinion from the same information. If Microsoft has a legal responsibility to keep things fair for all players on Xbox
Live then what is to keep someone from suing them for allowing something like DLC weapons in multiplayer matches?

My assertion that we live in one of the most peaceful periods in recent human history is largely accurate. In most industrialized nations the homicide rate has fallen over the last 15 years according to statistics provided by the U.N. Office on Drugs and
Crime. In the United States not only has the homicide rate fallen since the 1990s but so have instances of sexual assault. According to data gathered by the Pew Research Center since World War II there has been a consistent decline in the number of deaths
from armed conflicts, especially following the end of the Cold War. Deaths from armed conflicts have risen modestly over the last few years because of the war in Syria, however as a whole the number of victims continues to trend downward. Bigotry, violence,
apathy, and cynicism are certainly prevalent in society, but to say we are somehow in the midst of one of the most morally bankrupt periods in modern history is misleading. I would prefer not to debate this aspect of the discussion further, I come here to
talk about Xbox not politics, morality, or social issues.

A perfectly fair environment on Xbox Live is an unobtainable goal, however for the most part I would argue Microsoft does a good job at policing Xbox. Having the most fair multiplayer environment has never been a major selling point for any successful console,
I think you overestimate the number of customers an overhaul to the disciplinary system could bring in.

 

FUF LP: "Patronizing me does not make my arguments any less valid" You're right, they are just simply invalid all on their own, and I wasn't patronizing you, just pointing out the immaturity of your comments, they show your youth and inexperience, did
not mean it in a condescending way, just simple fact. "It is unreasonable to expect everyone to reach the same opinion from the same information." This is a perfect example of where you are coming from as opposed to where I am coming from. You are coming
from opinion, I try very hard to stay away from opinion (opinions generally hold no value) instead I try to only come from fact, reality and truth. As I said before, I have no problem calling things what they are and do not engage in political correctness,
I do try to be tactful when I can instead, don't always succeed in that. When you look at something from all angles and sides without a predetermined position, you can almost always then see it for what it really is and then come to the correct conclusion,
most situations (not all) do have a correct conclusion. Whether or not an individual wants to accept the conclusion or not is entirely a different matter, that's personal choice and everyone has that right. "If Microsoft has a legal responsibility to keep
things fair for all players on Xbox Live". Never said they had a legal responsibility regarding this, it is an inherent moral responsibility. DLC never provides a decided advantage, I've purchased enough over time to know this, there's always something in
game that balances it. It's just a sales pitch to get people to purchase.

2nd paragraph: "most industrialized nations the homicide rate has fallen over the last 15 years" You're speaking of a very small portion of the world" I'm talking about whole world, which is what you need to include when making a statement like that,
because it involves the whole world. You're also speaking about stats that are based on percentages and are very misleading, as well as a very insignificant time period. Go back 100 years or more and your statement is as far from the truth as it could be.
When it comes to war, total number of deaths again is misleading, this is mostly due to larger countries like the USA being able to pinpoint their targets and avoid civilian casualties, it in no way makes things more peaceful. This also does not take into
account all the people that lose their lives indirectly or those displaced, like what is happening now, this adds more conflict and disruption which take away from peace. You have to look at the world as a whole and you're not doing that. "to say we are
somehow in the midst of one of the most morally bankrupt periods in modern history is misleading." Again, as you get older, you will come to see this very differently, it will become very obvious to you. It is a very true statement, and is on a continual
decline.

3rd paragraph; "A perfectly fair environment on Xbox Live is an unobtainable goal". Absolutely true, it does not excuse one form trying to reach it however. "for the most part I would argue Microsoft does a good job at policing Xbox". Fully disagree
with this, when banned players can simply open new accounts with new gamer tags, that is not a "good job". Nor do we see an effective means of cutting cheating down, just play battlefield or titanfall or really any FPS, you can barley ever get into a clean
game. "Having the most fair multiplayer environment has never been a major selling point for any successful console, I think you overestimate the number of customers an overhaul to the disciplinary system could bring in." That's because they have never tried.
And I would bet my life you are underestimating it significantly (opinion, couldn't stay away from that one), no way to see one way or the other unless they try it.

 

I am an adult, talking down to me is patronizing regardless of your intention. Forming a conclusion does not make your arguments indisputable fact, regardless of how impartial you consider your decision making process to be. If you admit Microsoft does not
have a legal responsibility to keep things fair on Xbox Live then how exactly is the Elite controller illegal?

I'm not going to discuss the morality issue any further, as I said before the rampant racism, homophobia, and sexism displayed by older generations is hardly an example of positive morality. I come here to talk about Xbox, not politics.

I can only speak from personal experience but I have not had any issues with hackers since I purchased my Xbox One. People can get hostile on Xbox but blocking communications with them works fine and there is always the report a player feature. Game developers
are far better equipped to deal with cheaters in their multiplayer games than Microsoft is.

 

FUF LP: "I am an adult, talking down to me is patronizing regardless of your intention. Forming a conclusion does not make your arguments indisputable fact, regardless of how impartial you consider your decision making process to be." Again, these comments
and your inability to reason or differentiate between fact and opinion shows your youth. You may be an adult, but you're a very young one. As far a patronizing goes, you're allowing your feelings to get in the way, nothing I can do about that, if you want
to be hurt then you'll be hurt. Intention is everything here, it clarifies whether I was attacking you (patronizing) or simply identifying some characteristics, which is what I was doing. I have a feeling (opinion), you cry foul a lot.

"If you admit Microsoft does not have a legal responsibility to keep things fair on Xbox Live then how exactly is the Elite controller illegal?" As I stated before, it's the violation of their own service agreement and code of conduct.

Paragraph 2: Then stop... As I stated before, it's the continual overall decline I mentioned. Giving three examples (that frankly go way beyond morals) that you feel are better does not encompass the entire picture. Again, one of your examples actually
supports the decay of morals, but I don't think by your bringing it up that you truly understand it. As you get older, you'll begin to recognize and understand.

Paragraph 3: It's far more than just hackers, there are numerous ways to cheat. Maybe it's because I am so aware of it, and look for it. "Game developers are far better equipped to deal with cheaters in their multiplayer games than Microsoft is." Not
sure about this, don't know enough about developing and their involvement with xbox live. I do know it's Microsoft's responsibility since they are the service provider, maybe they need do a better job cooperatively then, for games that are not Microsoft developed.
Individual games aside, Microsoft is again responsible for their service and has ultimate responsibility for cleaning things up.

 

He guys lets try and stay away from age assumptions or personal attacks on other users. Lets try to stay on the topic at hand.

Thanks!

 

One day left; let the cheaters rejoice and Microsoft rake in the cash without a care for their membership.

 

Does anybody know why www.Walmart.com has the Xbox One Elite controller available on December 31, 2015 and not on October 27?

 

First of all of they game this controller to everyone then the Xbox one would cost more. Also this is for the hardcore gamer not just anyone. This controller is going to be mostly used in games like call of duty and halo. This controller is at the same level
of the scuf controller that is almost the same thing and scuf controller cost more than this controller by $50+. Also scuf helped make this controller. If you really look at it and understand the use of it there is no way it is helping people cheat. There
are lots of people who play with a scuf controller like all of the pro players and nobody cares that they have a little advantage against some people. This controller is a STEAL for $150 I know I'm going to pick one kf head up. Also the controller is made
out of better stronger parts that I think are steal. Also where the sticks always rub and wear out they fixed the problem with the elite controller so they won't wear out as fast. Something the scuf doesn't have. This is one of the greatest buys for a controller
like this. There is no cheating evolved in this. It's like with a gold surround sound headset lots of people have those and yes it helpes you play some games by being able to hear your enemy but they don't give a huge clear advantage over the other players.
This is a good quality product. Microsoft is the same as every company. You can't say that they are just trying to steal your money and it should cost $60 when they would then lose money. It's the same as Sony with the ps4 they will do things on that console
so they can still make money. It's with every company they all want to make money or they have no business