Tv can do full rgb, what to use on xbox1

Discus and support Tv can do full rgb, what to use on xbox1 in XBoX on Consoles to solve the problem; My tv can do full rgb and my xb1 always looks a bit off no matter what i do. The heck should i set the range for on xb1? It always looks a tad off... Discussion in 'XBoX on Consoles' started by blazinghellion, Feb 14, 2015.

  1. Tv can do full rgb, what to use on xbox1


    My tv can do full rgb and my xb1 always looks a bit off no matter what i do.

    The heck should i set the range for on xb1? It always looks a tad off

    :)
     
    blazinghellion, Feb 14, 2015
    #1
  2. M3tal Daz3
    M3tal Daz3 Guest
    Xbox One S black levels?

    TV content is authored such that a value of 16 (on a 0-255 scale) represents full black and 235 represents full white (this color span = “RGB Limited”) and assumes the viewer's TV has been calibrated to show full black upon receiving a pixel value of 16
    and to show full white upon receiving a value of 235. Xbox One is assumed to be connected to a TV (not a PC monitor), and we make our best efforts to optimize video content (movies, TV shows, content authored specific experience for video levels, i.e. "RGB
    Limited"), consistent with CE devices.

    Switching to RGB Full will cause loss of visual dynamic range on a properly calibrated TV.

    Basically, you should always use the TV (RGB Limited) Color Space display setting on Xbox One. All video content (TV shows, Movies, Blu-ray, DVD, etc.) is authored for (RGB Limited). You’ll actually lose visual dynamic range if you select Color Space = PC
    (RGB Full).

    The "RGB Limited" setting could be named more accurately.'

    Note they have now changed the name to RGB Standard and PC RGB. If you use RGB Standard then 99% of your "crushed black" problems will be gone

    For more info:
    https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/console/adjust-display-settings
     
    M3tal Daz3, Feb 14, 2015
    #2
  3. oryan_dunn
    oryan_dunn Guest
    Display Calibration and RGB, black levels

    A long post follows....

    RGB TV / RGB Limited means content is mastered at 16 = black and 235 = white.

    RGB PC / RGB Full means content is mastered at 0 = black and 255 = white.

    No matter what settings you select in your TV or the XB1, when a source outputs RGB, it sends 8bits (0-255) per channel (unless you select a higher bit depth, but that's for a different discussion).

    If you have a source that is outputting RGB Limited for RGB Limited and your TV is set to RGB Limited, the TV should be calibrated so that 16 = black and 235 = white. The way this is usually done is through calibration patterns that have information below
    16 or above 235, also known as blacker than black or whiter than white. For the XB1, this is the top/bottom black/white bars and the closed eye and sun in the built in calibration program. When a display chain such as this is calibrated properly, you're
    not supposed to see the closed eye or the sun, and the top two and bottom two bars should look the same color. If you can see the closed eye or sun, then the display is to bright and/or to contrast-y.

    If you have a source that is outputting RGB Full and your TV is set to RGB Full, the TV should be calibrated so that 0 = black and 255 = white. Here is where the confusion starts. To properly expand content mastered for RGB Limited (most all TV and movies,
    and likely other content as well), the device accepting the RGB Limited content and outputting RGB Full is responsible for expanding this properly. That necessarily means clipping below black and above white. For 8 bit RGB, you can't send higher than 255,
    and there are no negative RGB values. In this case, no matter how bright you set your TV, you'll never see the closed eye. It's impossible to see blacker than black on RGB full showing content mastered for RGB Limited. If you are seeing below black or above
    white, then that means the program expanding the RGB Limited mastered content is not expanding properly.

    Now, with that said, I think there are some issues. I have no knowledge other than my hunches about how the XB1 works. My hunch is that it either treats all apps as having content mastered for RGB Limited and applies the expansion to all games/apps/movies/etc.
    Or, the game/app can tell the system that it's content is RGB Limited or RGB Full so the XB1 can expand/not expand as necessary. If it's the latter option, then I think apps like IE don't properly advertise their content is RGB full. Also, apps like the
    Media Player photo viewer should be RGB Full, while the video player in the Media Player app should be RGB Limited. That's why when you set the XB1 to RGB TV and your display to RGB Full, photos and content on IE look right, because you're basically turning
    off the RGB Limited -> RGB Full expander. But, that only fixes RGB Full content. When you do that, anything mastered for RGB Limited will look very washed out. I've read where most developers target RGB Limited, so I'm wondering if the XB1 just assumes
    all content is RGB Limited and expands carte blanche. If that's the case, then it seems like the "fix" is to allow an app to tell the system if it's content is RGB Limited or RGB Full so the XB1 can properly apply the 16-235 -> 0-255 expander.

    So, if you see games that look "more correct" when the XB1 is set to RGB TV and your display is set to RGB Full, then I suspect the game has been mastered to RGB Full and the XB1 is normally incorrectly applying the RGB expander. With the XB1 set to RGB
    TV and your display set to RGB Limited or the XB1 set to RGB PC and your display set to RGB Full, you'd be crushing blacks/whites, and I suspect this is what most people are seeing. The developers have "worked around" the issue by mastering games to RGB Limited,
    which for people with displays that accept RGB Full result in a slightly reduced number of total available colors.
     
    oryan_dunn, Feb 14, 2015
    #3
  4. AVWriter Win User

    Display Calibration and RGB, black levels

    This is a mis-understanding of how video and PC levels work, and what the proper setting for these controls are. It doesn't help that the RGB Full and Limited terminology is what everyone uses, as opposed to "RGB TV" and "RGB PC" or something else.

    All non-PC video content, from HDTV to Blu-ray and DVD, uses the video levels. Those are from 16-235. There is nothing below 16, it is only black, and nothing above 235, which is only white. There should be no content that falls into this space as TVs are
    not meant to show it. Some TVs might let you adjust them to the point of showing content below 16 or above 235, but you likely shouldn't. Doing so will reduce shadow detail, reduce highlights, and reduce the contrast ratio of your TV making it look worse.
    There also should be no content in there, so you aren't seeing anything else.

    PC monitors use the full 0-255 RGB range. Additionally all games are produced using this range since they are all produced on PCs. 0 is black, 255 is white, and it is much easier to grasp.

    What RGB Limited does is display content using that 16-235 range that TVs use. For DVD and Blu-ray movies, this simply means keeping them in their native format. For video games, this means it converts them to 16-235 from 0-255 on the fly.

    RGB Full does the opposite. It keeps video games in the 0-255 range while converting movies and TV content to the full scale. Otherwise you would have grayish blacks and dull whites.

    What this really means is you should always use RGB Limited unless you are using a PC monitor, which is designed to use RGB Full. If you do not, you're expanding the video range outside of what your TV should display and you're losing shadow and highlight
    details. Additionally, if you setup your TV to work with RGB Full, anything else plugged into it is going to look dull and washed out.

    The RGB Full setting inside a TV typically means it accepts values below 16 or above 235 over HDMI. Many TVs will just throw that data out because it isn't useful to them since they aren't meant to display it.

    Basically, use RGB Limited unless using a PC Monitor. Only then should you use RGB Full. I'll write up an article about this to help clear it up as it's understandably confusing.
  5. oryan_dunn Win User

    Display Calibration and RGB, black levels

    A long post follows....

    RGB TV / RGB Limited means content is mastered at 16 = black and 235 = white.

    RGB PC / RGB Full means content is mastered at 0 = black and 255 = white.

    No matter what settings you select in your TV or the XB1, when a source outputs RGB, it sends 8bits (0-255) per channel (unless you select a higher bit depth, but that's for a different discussion).

    If you have a source that is outputting RGB Limited for RGB Limited and your TV is set to RGB Limited, the TV should be calibrated so that 16 = black and 235 = white. The way this is usually done is through calibration patterns that have information below
    16 or above 235, also known as blacker than black or whiter than white. For the XB1, this is the top/bottom black/white bars and the closed eye and sun in the built in calibration program. When a display chain such as this is calibrated properly, you're
    not supposed to see the closed eye or the sun, and the top two and bottom two bars should look the same color. If you can see the closed eye or sun, then the display is to bright and/or to contrast-y.

    If you have a source that is outputting RGB Full and your TV is set to RGB Full, the TV should be calibrated so that 0 = black and 255 = white. Here is where the confusion starts. To properly expand content mastered for RGB Limited (most all TV and movies,
    and likely other content as well), the device accepting the RGB Limited content and outputting RGB Full is responsible for expanding this properly. That necessarily means clipping below black and above white. For 8 bit RGB, you can't send higher than 255,
    and there are no negative RGB values. In this case, no matter how bright you set your TV, you'll never see the closed eye. It's impossible to see blacker than black on RGB full showing content mastered for RGB Limited. If you are seeing below black or above
    white, then that means the program expanding the RGB Limited mastered content is not expanding properly.

    Now, with that said, I think there are some issues. I have no knowledge other than my hunches about how the XB1 works. My hunch is that it either treats all apps as having content mastered for RGB Limited and applies the expansion to all games/apps/movies/etc.
    Or, the game/app can tell the system that it's content is RGB Limited or RGB Full so the XB1 can expand/not expand as necessary. If it's the latter option, then I think apps like IE don't properly advertise their content is RGB full. Also, apps like the
    Media Player photo viewer should be RGB Full, while the video player in the Media Player app should be RGB Limited. That's why when you set the XB1 to RGB TV and your display to RGB Full, photos and content on IE look right, because you're basically turning
    off the RGB Limited -> RGB Full expander. But, that only fixes RGB Full content. When you do that, anything mastered for RGB Limited will look very washed out. I've read where most developers target RGB Limited, so I'm wondering if the XB1 just assumes
    all content is RGB Limited and expands carte blanche. If that's the case, then it seems like the "fix" is to allow an app to tell the system if it's content is RGB Limited or RGB Full so the XB1 can properly apply the 16-235 -> 0-255 expander.

    So, if you see games that look "more correct" when the XB1 is set to RGB TV and your display is set to RGB Full, then I suspect the game has been mastered to RGB Full and the XB1 is normally incorrectly applying the RGB expander. With the XB1 set to RGB
    TV and your display set to RGB Limited or the XB1 set to RGB PC and your display set to RGB Full, you'd be crushing blacks/whites, and I suspect this is what most people are seeing. The developers have "worked around" the issue by mastering games to RGB Limited,
    which for people with displays that accept RGB Full result in a slightly reduced number of total available colors.
  6. Endgamez Win User

    Color Space

    Y CB CR is an analogue colour space and narrower than Full RGB. If your TV supports Full RGB, then that's the setting you should use. If not, then it won't make any difference.
  7. M3tal Daz3 Win User

    Xbox One S black levels?

    TV content is authored such that a value of 16 (on a 0-255 scale) represents full black and 235 represents full white (this color span = “RGB Limited”) and assumes the viewer's TV has been calibrated to show full black upon receiving a pixel value of 16
    and to show full white upon receiving a value of 235. Xbox One is assumed to be connected to a TV (not a PC monitor), and we make our best efforts to optimize video content (movies, TV shows, content authored specific experience for video levels, i.e. "RGB
    Limited"), consistent with CE devices.

    Switching to RGB Full will cause loss of visual dynamic range on a properly calibrated TV.

    Basically, you should always use the TV (RGB Limited) Color Space display setting on Xbox One. All video content (TV shows, Movies, Blu-ray, DVD, etc.) is authored for (RGB Limited). You’ll actually lose visual dynamic range if you select Color Space = PC
    (RGB Full).

    The "RGB Limited" setting could be named more accurately.'

    Note they have now changed the name to RGB Standard and PC RGB. If you use RGB Standard then 99% of your "crushed black" problems will be gone

    For more info:
    https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/console/adjust-display-settings
  8. RedEye Expr3ss Win User

    I gave in

    Also, I forgot to mention that in Full RGB it looks amazing. I think most tv's can handle Full rgb now in 2013? Anyway, it works well for me and playing COD is loads better then it was on the 360.
Thema:

Tv can do full rgb, what to use on xbox1

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