PC RGB is Broken | Do not use PC RGB

Discus and support PC RGB is Broken | Do not use PC RGB in XboX Insiders to solve the problem; What I found out is, that the black level is set 1 point lower in PC RGB [0-255] than in Standard [16-235]. Meaning that, when the RGB range on the... Discussion in 'XboX Insiders' started by /u/WesternRev_, Dec 20, 2021.

  1. PC RGB is Broken | Do not use PC RGB


    What I found out is, that the black level is set 1 point lower in PC RGB [0-255] than in Standard [16-235].

    Meaning that, when the RGB range on the Xbox is set to Standard [16-235] and the TV to low [16-235], you get perfect blacks at black level on the TV, set to 50.

    And when the RGB range on the Xbox is set to PC RGB [0-255] and the TV to high [0-255], you get perfect blacks at black level set to 49. Any higher than 49 raises reference blacks.

    —————————————————————

    So, as you can see there is something wrong with the way the Xbox outputs the PC RGB range. The black level in the PC RGB range is set to 1 point lower.

    —————————————————————

    Reference blacks are raised in the PC RGB range. This was tested on all of my displays [Monitor - EW3270U & TV - C9]

    —————————————————————

    Now comes the problem.

    Since some displays don’t have a black level slider, you’re stuck with raised blacks, when you choose to use the PC RGB range.

    —————————————————————

    On top of that, the severity of raised blacks are gonna vary from person to person, because now that we know that the reference black is not truly black in the PC RGB range, it is therefore now under the hand of gamma, since gamma affects all the grays in between.

    And the preset gamma in different picture modes varies. And people use different picture modes.

    —————————————————————

    TLDR:

    The default black level setting on my displays is 50.

    When I set my display and Xbox to limited, blacks are perfect.

    When I set my display and Xbox to full, suddenly blacks are slightly raised.

    I have to lower the black level setting from 50 to 49. Now, blacks are perfect again.

    —————————————————————

    Do not use, PC RGB.

    submitted by /u/WesternRev_
    [link] [comments]
     
    /u/WesternRev_, Dec 20, 2021
    #1
  2. JTF195 Win User

    Display Calibration and RGB, black levels

    All of you are correct in describing how RGB Full and RGB Limited are SUPPOSED to work.

    On every device I own EXCEPT the Xbox 360 and Xbox One, the options for RGB Limited and RGB Full DO work this way.

    On the Xbox 360 and Xbox One, however, the RGB Limited option outputs RGB Full, and the RGB Full option is completely broken.
  3. JTF195 Win User

    Display Calibration and RGB, black levels

    As of the most recent Xbox 360 and Xbox One updates, the problem is still not fixed.

    I have my TV calibrated and configured properly. I have tested it with my both my PS3 and PC set to RGB Full and RGB Limited, and my Wii U (which outputs RGB Limited)

    It works perfectly with all 3 devices.

    On both the Xbox 360 and Xbox One, however, the output from the both the RGB Full and RGB limited options have 16 levels of black crushing and 16 levels of white crushing when the TV is set to the corresponding mode, and only look normal when the TV is set
    to RGB Full, and the Xbox is set to RGB Limited.

    I don't have recording equipment, but others have recorded output and tested the black levels in photoshop to verify this issue.

    Essentially the problem breaks down as follows:

    Black Levels

    15-239

    - PS RGB Limited option, Wii U, PC RGB Limited output

    0-255

    - Xbox RGB Limited option, PS RGB Full option, PC RGB Full output

    (-16)-271 (values out of range by 16 levels)

    - Incorrect Xbox RGB Full option
  4. AVWriter Win User

    Display Calibration and RGB, black levels

    This is a mis-understanding of how video and PC levels work, and what the proper setting for these controls are. It doesn't help that the RGB Full and Limited terminology is what everyone uses, as opposed to "RGB TV" and "RGB PC" or something else.

    All non-PC video content, from HDTV to Blu-ray and DVD, uses the video levels. Those are from 16-235. There is nothing below 16, it is only black, and nothing above 235, which is only white. There should be no content that falls into this space as TVs are
    not meant to show it. Some TVs might let you adjust them to the point of showing content below 16 or above 235, but you likely shouldn't. Doing so will reduce shadow detail, reduce highlights, and reduce the contrast ratio of your TV making it look worse.
    There also should be no content in there, so you aren't seeing anything else.

    PC monitors use the full 0-255 RGB range. Additionally all games are produced using this range since they are all produced on PCs. 0 is black, 255 is white, and it is much easier to grasp.

    What RGB Limited does is display content using that 16-235 range that TVs use. For DVD and Blu-ray movies, this simply means keeping them in their native format. For video games, this means it converts them to 16-235 from 0-255 on the fly.

    RGB Full does the opposite. It keeps video games in the 0-255 range while converting movies and TV content to the full scale. Otherwise you would have grayish blacks and dull whites.

    What this really means is you should always use RGB Limited unless you are using a PC monitor, which is designed to use RGB Full. If you do not, you're expanding the video range outside of what your TV should display and you're losing shadow and highlight
    details. Additionally, if you setup your TV to work with RGB Full, anything else plugged into it is going to look dull and washed out.

    The RGB Full setting inside a TV typically means it accepts values below 16 or above 235 over HDMI. Many TVs will just throw that data out because it isn't useful to them since they aren't meant to display it.

    Basically, use RGB Limited unless using a PC Monitor. Only then should you use RGB Full. I'll write up an article about this to help clear it up as it's understandably confusing.
  5. mr funknuts Win User

    Reference Levels and HDMI Color Space Settings

    Your best bet for using RGB expanded is turn off display discovery, Set the xbox to expanded RGB and TV to PC mode if possible, Although PC mode on my Samsung looks awful without a lot of sharpening so i just use movie mode and set the black level to normal.
    If you can calibrate your display first with a pc or some other source it would be better as the xbox system video player does not seem to output Full or Limited RGB properly, but Netflix seems to output as it should.
  6. M3tal Daz3 Win User

    Xbox One S black levels?

    TV content is authored such that a value of 16 (on a 0-255 scale) represents full black and 235 represents full white (this color span = “RGB Limited”) and assumes the viewer's TV has been calibrated to show full black upon receiving a pixel value of 16
    and to show full white upon receiving a value of 235. Xbox One is assumed to be connected to a TV (not a PC monitor), and we make our best efforts to optimize video content (movies, TV shows, content authored specific experience for video levels, i.e. "RGB
    Limited"), consistent with CE devices.

    Switching to RGB Full will cause loss of visual dynamic range on a properly calibrated TV.

    Basically, you should always use the TV (RGB Limited) Color Space display setting on Xbox One. All video content (TV shows, Movies, Blu-ray, DVD, etc.) is authored for (RGB Limited). You’ll actually lose visual dynamic range if you select Color Space = PC
    (RGB Full).

    The "RGB Limited" setting could be named more accurately.'

    Note they have now changed the name to RGB Standard and PC RGB. If you use RGB Standard then 99% of your "crushed black" problems will be gone

    For more info:
    https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/console/adjust-display-settings
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PC RGB is Broken | Do not use PC RGB

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